Wait, what did Reed do then? I've never read FF, bit too squeaky clean for me. He's usually the guy too cautious to do anything.
The whole shooting Hulk in to space thing....yeah look that was a terrible decision for the so called megaminds to think is the best course of action.
I only vaguely remember the thing with The Hood, but he's a cool character. I'd love a 4 ish mini on him or something like that. Or better yet bring back Marvel Knights. Get Moonie, DD and Punisher to put the band back together.
Stark is just too arrogant at time to see what's actually coming but I was absolutely Team Stark during Civil War.

Stark and Richards were the idiots basically in charge of the civil war, aka the US government becoming a police state where the people who put there lives on the line to protect people were no longer citizens, but government property. I used to be a big Iron man fan, he was one of my top 10, but he's never gotten close after the civil war (She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel survive on my Top 10 favorite list even though they were on the wrong side, mostly because She-Hulk has always been a favorite and she had to suffer real consequences for her actions, and Ms. Marvel was written to where it seemed like she might have learned a lesson).

Just supporting the government in their immoral actions. Actually, to be honest, it wasn't just immoral it was evil and against the spirit of the US Constitution's guarentee for freedom of the citizens, much like all the mutant registration stuff is. His actions supporting the government were enough to knock him down from being a favorite character (although I still like him, his comic version has still never really recovered from his actions to me), but being personally reponsible for the death of Goliath (which Richards is also partially responsible for) was horrible. He also used vicious criminals to catch good guys (remember, Spider-Man was beat almost to death because of Stark, and probably only survived because The Punisher was around). I love the Civil war event (even with its poorly thought out ending), but you definately learned who the true heroes were, and it wasn't the Iron Tyrant capturing the good guys by using the people he should be locking up, or Richards building a prision to lock up the heroes. Richards was almost as bad as stark, and his plans that included the negative zone prision lead to him almost leaving his family forever to join a group of Reed Richards's that turned out to be very bad men themselves. Both of them used their minds for evil, and it bit them both is the ass in different ways eventually. They're the biggest examples of geniuses turning evil without even realising it, because it some respects they're very stupid (Richards has even been called the stupidest/most clueless genius in the Marvel U before).

Right, I now think I have to concede maybe I missed some big things in Civil War because I can't remember some of what you're talking about.

I loved the Civil War event because I thought it was a great metaphor for post 9/11 America. Patriot act and the rising sense of paranoia etc. I got stubborn and went with Stark because when the event first began it seemed so obvious to me they were going to try and throw Stark under the bus. The basic idea of registration isn't terrible, especially when you have people cruising around with abilities that could fight of armies. And foolishly I thought this was going to be like
"CIVIL WAR - Who's side are you on?!" rather than "CIVIL WAR - Who's side are you on?(but not Stark cause we're going to twist his character so you can't root for him because Cap is never wrong)". So the second that became apparent as to how things would play out I dug my heels and with Tony.
Yes the prison/thunderbolts thing was pretty fascist but that's another reason I chose Stark. I thought it was complete BS that he'd just flip against old comrades to the level he ended up going.
I mean it's completely jaded that Cap is always right, and always on the right side! Even if they want to blame it on mind control a Cap being led astray arc would be so interesting because no one would see it coming.

I grew up almost solely on Marvel and only jumped in to DC with GL : Rebirth but even Supes fails and gets things wrong, but Cap? Not a chance!

I have to agree, the whole illuminati thing appeals to me, especially with the doomsday scenario they're faced with and the tensions between some of the members.

Civil War was a good read, I'm glad it didn't stick because I hate cap being dead and I hated hating Tony.

I actually enjoyed the arc where Osborn was hunting Stark, it was a cool read and showed him at a weak point that we hadn't seen before (they didn't use alcoholism again, for once).

I wasn't comparing Marvel to DC...since I know very little about all the DC titles and I subscribe to most of the Marvel titles. I do read the GL's and read Birds of Prey for a little, but it never stuck (still read GL). I was just noticing some things I didn't like that just happened to occur after the big buy out.

Love this conversation though!

On the point of the influence the movies have over their core comic book counterparts, any changes we've seen in the books post-film have been superficial at best.
When the first X-men film came out, suddenly ALL their comic uniforms switch to black and the tone became a little more militaristic.
For every Spider-man movie that came out, the villain of the comic stories was almost always the once the movie focused on, either at the same time or slightly before or after, but the stories themselves weren't really reflective of the films in any substantial way that the films differed from the comic.
Yes, many costume designs in the comics have been altered in the course of the various Avengers films... but almost NONE of the film stories that were not already part of comic canon became part of the canon after the films in any significant way.

Comic canon HAS been altered to fit into the cinematic universe. Not so much the other way around. Yes, I'll concede that they released at least two new books that invested in a core team of Avengers that matched the line up from the movies and yes Nick Fury's black son and Agent Coulson have found places for themselves in the comic continuity after the films...but those specifics are not atypical of Marvel's past tactics nor do they alter core canon in any truly ridiculous way... (though Nick Fury jr. is admittedly a strain on my suspension of disbelief.)

It's an important distinction to recognize with regard to Disney's supposed influence, because most of cinematic Marvel has been produced prior to Disney's purchase of Marvel. Some of these things are just how Marvel had already operated, i.e. with cross-platform strategies made to sell more things.

ALL crossover and multi-character events are designed to get readers interested in more than JUST their favorite characters... even if it's just for a little while. This has been going on for YEARS. Look back to the 3-part Contest of Champions and the 12-part Secret Wars from the 80's. AU, AVX, FI, etc... are just SOP for Marvel. Disney has little to do with it, though they are in a position to enhance those strategies in any number of ways.


Regarding Nova... Sam Alexander was introduced as a bit of a plot device to lead into the AVX story about 5 months before he was introduced on the USM cartoon (an utter piece of garbage as a cartoon, but that's a discussion for another time.) That gap was likely intentional and quite probably done in synergy between comic and cartoon producers as a way to familiarize a new character to the whole of their audience, though I'm sure they have a plethora of various other goals and marketing strategies in mind as well.

From personal experience/tastes I'd have to agree with this one.

Been pretty much disenfranchised with Marvel for a long time now. They just kinda keep doing more things to drive me away and less things to drag me back onboard. Started around CW for me and been downhill ever since. Used to get 25+ books a month, down to 3 now.

Its funny as of late I've been learning a lot about myself as a comic book reader. I've found that what I consider to be a good read when it comes to comics are books with a dense plot, usually anything sci fi or cosmic, and most of all something with a sense of humor (Character development good story and good art go without saying). Other than all the stuff at Image Or IDW, I really feel that Marvel caters to what appeals to me now. There are so many books that Marvel produce's that I literally find myself laughing out loud at, just to mention a few : Hawkeye, All New X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, Wolverine and The X-Men, Young Avengers, Daredevil, FF, Indestructible Hulk. Than there is the really dense and layered books like Avengers, New Avengers, Thor, etc. Batman still reigns as king in my heart , but between the major two Marvel has me locked for now. Also the first two issues of Nova aren't that bad.

Those are two of the three books I'm still reading. I can get the lol on Hawkguy but DD? Are we reading the same book?

well,the new DD run is more lighthearted compared to the previous run,which I like,not lol but fun and engaging non the less

The current DD is not as bleak as previous runs but still pretty dour, wouldn't put it in the lol category.

And to expand on reasons for disliking the current status quo of Marvel - connectivity, events, double shipping, same old same old writers.

I'm very easily amused! While it's not as outrageously funny as Hawkguy, it still provides a lot of entertainment for me, I guess to be more specific it's a fun book. To me it just doesnt seem like DC has enough of that for me. As a side question what's going on with DC's constant battle with their writers? That whole Green Latern business was ridiculous.

as fasr as changes in comics go i havent noticed anything, but thats because it takes me years to get around to new comics. i've been reading and rereading old comics for years. one of these days i wanna read fear itself. dunno if thats even new anymore. the movies, since disney has made the purchase, i would say are passable. i mean, nothing will compare to things like nick fury agent of shield, starring david hasselhoff.

Epic!

I read every post in this topic and have to say that there's a lot to agree with on both sides of the aisle...

However, regarding the initial point - I struggle to see much that would represent meddling from Disney in any title post NOW. One thing that has struck me of late is the shift of appropriate ages for most titles... and it certainly hasn't shifted in the direction one would expect from the House of Mouse.

There are very few all-ages or even young teen aimed books out from Marvel currently. Every character now seems to be edgier, the violence stronger and the storylines darker. Just look at Superior Spider-Man and you'll see how far Marvel are removing themselves from the young teenage market. That book is harsh. Claws?

I can understand the need to tie-in continuity with the flicks, that's just good business sense. With the impending collapse of the Ultimate Universe (which was really only ever a testing ground for movie concepts if we're fair) and a wholly unremarkable reboot through the entire Marvel catalogue it's only a matter of time before the dust settles and we accept the changes as the norm. I can live with that - there wasn't anything so bad that it made me throw a fit or cancel an order.

I think the more pressing issue is the matter of quality. When DC introduced the new 52 they brought with them their A-game. An all-star roster of talent, names we knew and who all had proven track records. Those that stayed with Marvel on the whole have been... disappointing of late. Bendis is seemingly way over his head writing ensemble books at the moment and as for crossovers, well, the kindest thing would be to just stop him. Or tie him up away from a computer. Fraction is pretty much up to par but beyond that we've been treated to some first-timers, some obscure names and not much worth shouting about.

Can any of this be Disney's fault? Nope. Marvel has a wealth of history and they've seen a change in the way people buy comics. They are targeting their books too hard at an older audience for starters and they're trying to compete with DC in areas they simply don't need to.

I'd like to see less emphasis on crossovers and more on developing individual titles to bring them up to where they should be. I'd like to see less team books being written for the sake of having a team book and I'd like to see characters utilised properly and that's something that Marvel can and will get back to after this shake up - I'm pretty sure of it. I also like to see Marvel movies so whilst Disney are footing the bill for those to happen I'm more than happy.

yeah Marvel's comics are really into quantity over quality,can't sneeze in the Marvelverse without a some new subpar team that doesn't last longer than a milk carton coming about,team-ups that interrupt personal stories every week and huge events every month,with tie-ins being nothing more than red sky crossovers that don't really contribute anything beyond getting more money from gullible folk

besides that,I'm otherwise satisfied with Marvel