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 Post subject: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:10 am 
Knight

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Disclaimer: There are spoilers in here for several series which I know a lot of people have read, but some may have not, I will list them, and if you care to read them and be surprised I advise you not to continue reading. If you've read them all or don't care I hope my post makes sense and you somewhat agree, if not, it's ok, it's just my opinion. I will try to use a spoiler tag for some of the key points, but you've been warned! :D

Series' involved:
Spider-man
X-men/Wolverine
Guardians of the Galaxy
Nova
Annihilation/Annihilation:Conquest/Thanos imperative
Any Marvel cross-over event (Civil war, Siege, Secret Invasion, Secret war (Fury), Fear Itself, Second coming, Age of Ultron (so far, 2 issues), AvX, and a few more that I probably won't remember until I rant about them.

Also, I would like to say this is in reference to the comics and not the movies, for the most parts Disney and Marvel teaming up for the movies (The Marvel division does most of the work, but it's much easier now that Disney owns Marvel studios).

There are a few incidents in which I think they failed:
Most of Iron man 2 for example, but 3 will make up for it.
Captain America wasn't too bad except
Spoiler: show
The montage where captain America runs around singing and selling bonds, could have saved 30 minutes.

Avengers was amazing and I enjoy watching it every time, but this video makes extremely valid points.


Anyways, on to the comics. I was already annoyed that they completely ignored continuity every two years, but ever since Disney has bought Marvel and has said that they will not interfere with the writing of the comic books I can't help but think that they are doing exactly that. The comics I read were darker and more enjoyable, most of the humor is still there, but a lot of stuff has changed for no reason and has made me want to stop reading a lot of the books.

There were those serious comic books, where you were really involved in the story and you couldn't wait until the next issue came out to see what happens next and I think as a company overall they've lost that. I'm not talking about the little cosmetic changes of slowly, but surely making most of the main characters look like the actors portraying them in the movies (except Cpt. America, they seem to have left him alone, and Peter Parker, but only because Sony won't give up Spider-man), I'm talking about the changes where they completely overwrite who the character is. Examples are Colossus, Spider-man, Nova, Star-Lord and a bunch of others.

I'm going to go into examples and will spoiler when necessary (mostly for stuff that came out today so that everyone gets a chance to read it).

I'm going to start with Nova (Richard Rider)...one of my favorite characters and comics to read, I've loved his wit, his power set, weaknesses, and the adventures the writers put him through. He was a darker character, went through a lot of turmoil and always had tough decisions to make, and ultimately
Spoiler: show
Payed the price with his life
.

But watch out guys! the new Nova is out! and it SUCKS.
Spoiler: show
There's a little kid in place of an actual hero
, and yes everyone loves an underdog, but Rider was already an underdog in most situations. To me, this is just one way that a great character has been taken and made "Disney-fied." So now instead of a bad ass hero and a great comic, we have some kid, we know nothing about who so far hasn't peaked my interest at all. Also, going back to continuity, he came to Earth to warn about the phoenix, but the series is just now coming out about his origin? Some people say change is good, and I like change when it comes to my super villains, not to a hero I love.

Let's move on...

How about Spider-Man, W. T. F.

Really?
Spoiler: show
Peter Parker is dead, but not dead, and is just an annoying ghost and Doctor Octopus is in his body but fighting crime his way?
That just goes against everything that is Spider-man. I've only kept reading because I'm waiting for them to get bored of the concept and
Spoiler: show
give Peter his body back,
but I'm even starting to get bored of that wait. I'm sure I'm not the only one on this one.

X-men:
AvX was awful and I don't know if you heard, but wolverine is popular,
Spoiler: show
so popular they want to kill him off for a while.
So Cyclops is a bad guy, Colossus is all weird and emo...I thought Whedon's run of X-men where he came back to life was one of the best arcs I had read (I loved him way before that), and now, after going evil (twice) he's such a tortured soul, that makes for a boring read. He went from one of my favorite X-men, to one of the hardest to read about because I have better things to do. Cable is dying and coming back to life every 3 months, and the whole hope thing is so played out, she hasn't done anything...literally, nothing, if you read her series, Generation Hope (don't borther), all she does is fly around on a jet pack for about 30 pages. That's just a few examples of the X comics going downhill.

Guardians of the galaxy:

The old one was pretty cool, I loved the motley crew of underdogs running around the Universe and saving stuff (like the Universe). The roster changed, people came and went, there were some unintentional betrayals, but you enjoyed everyone's presence (Raccoon's dialogue was skim-able at times). REBOOTED because there's a movie, everyone's the same though, except for the leader, he's not longer the awesome star-lord who was giving Nova advice during Annihilation, he was dark, funny, and kicked ass even though he had no super-powers, was just a plain human who was born when the stars aligned. Now...
Spoiler: show
he's somehow alive, has blonde hair and is half alien
, I get it, for the movie. I'll read until they explain some stuff, but after that it will probably be goodbye.

Let's talk crossovers...

Remember when a crossover was such an awesome event? It was like a great big team-up that involved almost everybody. Like when Onslaught was bugging the world, that was awesome (minus the weird events that followed to get everyone back, or his potential return). Now, to sell issues, they do it every time another cross over ends. We just finished AvX, and now we have AoU, but ever since Civil War, the cross overs have become less and less exciting (not to mention all the continuity flaws). There are parts and characters of each one that I have actually enjoyed, parts of Siege were interesting, Secret Invasion had it's moments, not many imho, but a few. I feel like the writers are being pressured or running out of ideas, and it's time to either hire someone new (or old) to take the reigns and bring some excitement back into these books, and I think the first step is to lower the frequency of these "events." It's not a special event if it's always going on (and if it always involves Ultron
Spoiler: show
Who died in space a while ago btw, so I had no interest in AoU as soon as it began [See: Annihilation:Conquest])
).

But that's not to say Marvel hasn't had it's successful titles, I've been really enjoying the new New Avengers arc, Secret Avengers was awesome for like 10 issues, the direction Indestructible Hulk is taking is a fresh look at it. X-Factor has always been good (one of the few constants), Iron man keeps me intrigued and a few more. I don't think DC is doing well in the ingenuity department either, but I just want to explain a few of the differences I've noticed since Disney took over. The whole "Marvel now!" thing is a gimmick and I hope it's not a permanent thing, but I get it, they're aiming for a younger, disney-like audience, but they shouldn't forget about their loyal readers who allowed them to be valued at $4 Billion for Disney to buy.

I love you guys, sorry for the wall of text, those are just a few examples of how Disney is slowly but surely corrupting Marvel, and I honestly blanked out on the rest (I had a lot), feel free to add and share your thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:36 am 
Duke
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most (maybe all) of those points have zero involvement from Disney

DC's New 52 had mixed results,should we blame Warner Bros. ?

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:54 am 
Knight

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Lex Talionis wrote:
most (maybe all) of those points have zero involvement from Disney

DC's New 52 had mixed results,should we blame Warner Bros. ?


Absolutely (JK)! And! as far as you or I know there is zero involvement from Disney, but I've noticed a lot of those points I've mentioned have been changed post buy-out. I know it's probably speculation, but ever since the buyout the writing isn't as great as it used to be and my interest has dropped... Maybe it's just me and I wanted to rant, feel free to delete the post.

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:33 pm 
Duke
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New Nova (Sam Alexander): you can blame Jeph Loeb for that one,he was originally created for the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon (in which Loeb's an executive producer),I haven't read the comic version,but Sam's extremely unlikable in the cartoon

Superior Spider-Man: just Dan Slott trying to leave a mark on the character,it won't last as there is an upcoming sequel to the Amazing Spider-Man film,it's still a good read and I think future generations will look fondly on this

X-Men,also known as "Wolverine and his Uncanny Friends": let's start with the fundamental aspect,the X-Men are team of Mutants,a kind persecuted for being born with superhuman abilities,which may have worked well back in the 60's,when superhumans were a rare sight in-universe,which is why the live-action and animated adaptations worked so well: they didn't have non-mutant superhumans in the adaptations (no Avengers,no FF) and so it made sense for the civilian population to hate and fear them,if Marvel wants the source material to be as well received as the various film and tv adaptations,they need to move 99% of the mutants to a separate reality,Wolverine can stay in the main one,seeing as he has "outgrown" the X-Men label and he's more of an Avenger and solo hero,and to be honest ? Cyclops has been a jerk for most of his career anyway,the addition of Wolverine just made it less subtle (the young naive ideologist turned into well-intentioned extremist,and the loner outsider turned into a likable family-guy)

Guardians of the Galaxy/Marvel Cosmic: outside the Silver Surfer I'm not very familiar with the Marvel space,so I'll let others fill in for me

Events: Marvel is especially guilty of this,I remember back a character from book A teamed up with a character from book B was so rare that it was actually exciting,now-a-days it's so common you just stop caring,wish they'd take a break between events,changing the the status quo every six years,not every six months,don't they know that the more you have of something the less valuable it becomes ? quality over quantity,come on !

Marvel NOW!: them trying (and failing) to catch some of that New 52 glory,I think DC has been handling their shit much better than Marvel in recent years: 1 major event every 3-4 years,books are self contained and don't cross into another book's turf unless it makes sense

what I'm trying to point out is: it's not Marvel being destroyed by Disney,it's Marvel being destroyed by Marvel

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:23 pm 
Duke
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Lex Talionis wrote:
1 major event every 3-4 years,books are self contained and don't cross into another book's turf unless it makes sense

On this I have to disagree. The Batman books have been a slew of events, albeit long, lingering events. That whole Owls thing lasted 10 or 11 issues of the main book.

And as for crossing over - Suicide Squad has crossed with 5 or 6 titles! Resurrection Man crossed with Suicide Squad, Justice League Dark and (I think) Deathstroke. Or if not Deathstroke, he was certainly in an issue or 2. Superboy has been in Teen Titans, Ravagers and the other two Super books. I've lost count of the amount of times in Marvel books someone has said "Why not call the Fantastic Four - oh, they're out in space." rather than "Hey, Mr Fantastic, please build me a deus ex machina. Thanks."

I know Marvel have crossovers more than a little, but it makes sense that Venom would go after Carnage. It makes sense that if they went to any NASA centre, it would be the one in Houston - roping involvement from Scarlet Spider into it. Titles that have low numbers get crossovers with others - if DC go by that logic, none of their books have high sales except for Justice League!

As for the topic of this thread, I don't think Marvel have gotten any less adult than they ever were, let alone as a result of being bought by Disney.

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:41 pm 
Duke
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my fault that I wasn't clear enough,allow me to rephrase: Marvel's overuse of crossover events made small-scale crossovers (classic A+B team-ups) uninteresting by comparison,unlike DC where heroes from different books don't interact with each as often like they do at Marvel's

Novice Reader: "check it out Captain America is teaming-up with Iron Man in next month's issue,sweet!"

Veteran Reader: "so what ? it's not like they're not already "teaming-up" as Avengers or anything..."

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:44 pm 
Knight
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This is just Marvel being Marvel. They had Spider-Man be 4 different identities shortly after DC's Reign of the Supermen. Obviously, there's the much maligned Clone Saga. Marvel likes to mess with Spidey.

As far as comics used to be dark but lightened up recently... that's just a shift that happens every so often, as well. I've seen it a couple times in the 20+ years I've read comics.


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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:49 pm 
Knight
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None of the big decisions Marvel makes have anything to do with Disney. Its stuff they would have done regardless. Also,

Lex Talionis wrote:
Superior Spider-Man: just Dan Slott trying to leave a mark on the character,it won't last as there is an upcoming sequel to the Amazing Spider-Man film,it's still a good read and I think future generations will look fondly on this


If future generations look at the Sh$%acular Spider-Man with fondess, then I know the future is doomed. Its not quite as rage inducing as OMD (although it makes MJ look even stupider than OMD did, which I suppose is an accomplishment since OMD did not do her any favors), but with all the good Spider-Man out there I hope this dark chapter gets buried and never mentioned again after Marvel makes the writer bring Peter back full time. OMD will be remembered as the worst Spider-Man story ever, and The Clone Saga will be remembered as the biggest screwup of a story maybe in Marvel's entire history. "Superior" Spider-Man (which may be the biggest lie in a comic title ever) should just be forgotten. People don't usually remember the second worst of anything, and hopefully, a few years down the road, this will be forgotten as just another bad era of Spider-Man.

Ok, there is my rant for the day :lol: Everyone is entitled to there own opinion, of you like the story, fine. But, I couldn't let the comment about "Superior" Spider-Man being remembered with fondness go without a comment. The story which is basically about Doc Ock acting like he always does but in Peter's body while everyone from his ex-GF of several years (they really seemed to have made MJ look like a complete moron before I stopped reading SSM, and she's never been a stupid character in general) to the avengers act like they've just taken stupid pills and don't see it is not something i think will be remembered fondly. Kind of like Liefeld/Lee's Heroe's Reborn stuff, I just hope this becomes an oddity that people barely remember a few years after it happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:25 pm 
Duke
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sorry Fives,it's just that I can't get this scenario out of my head:

"hey kids! did you know that Doc Ock was at one point operating as our friendly neighborhood wall-crawler ?"

"no way! sounds neat,better check it out"

*one trade later...

"not too bad,way better than the crap they publish now-a-days,publishers should take notes from the 10's,back when they actually knew how to draw and write"

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 Post subject: Re: Disney has destroyed Marvel (spoilers)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:42 pm 
Knight

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Lex Talionis wrote:
what I'm trying to point out is: it's not Marvel being destroyed by Disney,it's Marvel being destroyed by Marvel



you make amazing points, and I agree, Marvel is destroying itself to an extent, I guess I've only started really noticing it since Disney made the purchase.

Also, yes, Sam Alexander is unlikable/annoying, and it seems like he's going to be the Nova in the GotG movie

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:57 pm 
Knight
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Hmmm I can't say I agree with you but...but you can't deny that the 616 we all grew up on is slowly being altered to fall more in line with Marvel Studios vision.

I initally thought the Ock/Spidey thing was kind of intriguing but ghost conscience Peter and other aspects of the story are incredibly annoying. It's like there's an inbuilt reset mechanism installed if sales fall below X number. It just feels like a completely pointless arc since they don't have the balls to kill Peter off for a while properly. Now saying that I don't think I would have gone ahead with the storyline personally since you're messing with one of your biggest earners but at least work the story so you can trick the younger or more naive readers in to thinking it could be a forever thing.

Off topic:
I'm loving Hickman's Avengers/New Avengers right now.
Bring back Genis-Vell you shower of $&*%s!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:40 pm 
Knight
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Avengers is good, especially since the horrible artist only lasted the first few issues (now it has a good artist). I couldn't get into New avengers because I hate the Illuminati stuff.

Lex Talionis wrote:
sorry Fives,it's just that I can't get this scenario out of my head:

"hey kids! did you know that Doc Ock was at one point operating as our friendly neighborhood wall-crawler ?"

"no way! sounds neat,better check it out"

*one trade later...

"not too bad,way better than the crap they publish now-a-days,publishers should take notes from the 10's,back when they actually knew how to draw and write"


:lol: Yeah, thats an interesting scenario, and unfortunately one I can see happening. Still, I think overall Marvel is still really good, unlike what DC has become. Marvel still has some awesome stuff that I'm excited to read. Sure, it makes mistakes and has way too many events, but they do well enough in general.

Also, when it comes to making the comics fall in line with the movies, that always passes eventually. I seem to remember hearing about Spider-Man getting built in web shooters and having other stupid stuff happening to him because of the SM movies. The X-men also got stupid costumes for awhile because of the X-Men movies (and Cap has a lame costume now because of the Avengers and CA movies) but it could be worse. Atleast most of the heroes haven't been that effected (although it was funny when the bad Avengers artist drew Black widow like the movie version for his issues when she looked normal everywhere else and has continued to not look like the movie version in anything else).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:09 pm 
Knight
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To offer an opposing view why I do think Marvel has a ton of faults, I don't believe their being destroyed. Sure they have a ton of major events, sure everything seems to coincide with their movies, but they still produce a ton of good books. I think DC is suffering from just as many problems just not the same ones, it seems like they can barley keep writers happy over there cuz there always jumping off books with very public fallouts. I do agree that Marvel does have it's duds, but it's not like all of DC's line up is top quality. Personally I was pretty impressed by the new 52 when it first debuted but when the newness whore off I found most of their book to be dull and mediocre. Books like Nightwing, Gl corps, Flash, Justice League, Catwoman, Red Lantern's, Batwing, Detective Comics, Superman, Green Arrow etc. I guess I'm just trying to say I don't think Marvel is being destroyed anymore than DC is. Just they each have their own host of problems that makes them less attractive to some fans.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:31 am 
Knight
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The Illuminati "stuff" is probably one of the best creations in recent Marvel history.

Why?

Because it ABSOLUTELY would happen. Smart people can't leave decisions in the hands the likes of Cap and Spidey who are such champions of morality. Hard decisions have to be made. Only issue with it why the hell Namor is there. Ok he's a monarch of a kingdom but what exactly is adding to mix of super geniuses. And where the hell is Doom? Sure, you can't trust him but a guy that intelligent must surely be consulted. Though I'm delighted Pym isn't involved as he pisses me off so much.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:40 pm 
Knight
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I've never liked stuff like that. I don't like super secret world controlling orginazations. Anyway, all the Illuminauti has ever done is screw up. It sent Hulk into space, bringing on World War Hulk. It let the Hood get control of the Infinity gems, and needed Cap to bail them out. Half its members want to kill each other, and remember Richards and Stark are propbably the most immoral, and stupidest acting "superhero" geniuses on Earth.

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